On The Gist, Trump is no George Washington.

In the interview, Stephen Martin and Joseph Marks are here to discuss their new book Messengers: Who We Listen To, Who We Don’t, and Why. They talk about why the expert isn’t always the best vessel for information, the power dynamics involved, and why famous people often end up with that job.

In the Spiel, the indirect language of Trump.

Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices